LPG vs. Petrol
So you’ve done all your calculations and decided to convert your car to LPG like over 70,000 other Australians. It sounds good in theory and the government rebate of $2000 is a great help. The fuel figures show your savings in dollars will have your conversion paid off within a year or two depending on your vehicle and the mileage done. But have you got all the facts?
Environmental impact
The environment is another winner in the change you have made by lowering greenhouse emissions. The Australian Greenhouse Office website states that the mass of CO2 gas released of the exhaust pipe by the burning of one litre of fuel is:
- 2.3 kg for Petrol
- 1.5 kg for LPG.
LPG = Less kilometres per litre
You can expect a 20-30 per cent increase in gas consumption over petrol per kilometre because the lower energy content of gas requires more to be burned in the engine compared with petrol. For example, a six cylinder Commodore achieves 10.9 litres per 100 km on petrol compared to 16 litres per 100km when run on LPG.
Excise
There is no government excise until July 2011. But then the price of LPG will gradually rise over 5 years.
The excise will increase as follows:
- 1 July 2011 increase of 2.5%
- 1 July 2012 increase of 5.0%
- 1 July 2013 increase of 7.5%
- 1 July 2014 increase of 10.00%
- 1 July 2015 increase of 12.5%
In knowing all this, is or was a change to LPG worth it?
Do all the figures add up and, despite the cost savings, has your vehicle’s power and torque suffered? Is it less efficient when towing or carrying heavy loads, especially on long trips and going up hills?
November 21st, 2007 at 10:46 am
LPG is, to me, a badly thought out quick-fix. It’s not a real alternative. Even if 70000 motorists got the government rebate, what percentage of cars on the road is that? Any reduction in greenhouse gases is minimal. If it was a genuine alternative the serious car manufacturers would be investing in it. Surprise surprise! They’re not.
The government rebate on LPG was made to shut people up so the powers that be could say, “What are you whinging about the price of petrol for? There’s an alternative now… here’s some money!”
November 21st, 2007 at 7:28 pm
To Whom is interested, we have been using LPG as the prime fuel for most of our vehicles (1st vehicle 1989), the only exception was a turbo cordia. The slight loss of power is no major concern as we still arrive at our destination and are able to exceed the posted speed limit which we do not. the latest vehicle is a 4 litre Toyota Prado it is our tow unit for a 2000kg pop top van and it is fitted with the start of the art fuel injection and it was the dearests and it is more efficient than our other two vehicles which our vapour fuelled via air induction manifold. The cost saving well and truly pays for the out lay and marginal loss of power.
November 22nd, 2007 at 6:19 am
I have a Holden Commodore which I bought at auction in 1997. When it had 50,000 kilometres I had an LPG dual conversion . It has now done 274,000 with little trouble. There was one worn hose replaced for $10 and only one tune up costing around $160. This is for ten years and 220,000 km. The manufacturers state that the engine last longer on LPG.
It is the best thing I have ever done, it has saved me so much money.
Because we have an abundance of LPG in Australia I cannot understand why it is so expensive, when we are exporting it overseas for arould 5c per litre.
November 22nd, 2007 at 6:19 pm
I have a 2001 model Falcon which tows occassionally a 1200kg caravan. I had LPG fitted at 105000 kms and wish I had done so earlier.Fuel consumption has risen by about 8% and I have not noticed any drop in power at all.The car seems to run smoother on gas and is saving us lots of money.
December 1st, 2007 at 9:03 pm
I agree with Marcus. The car manufacturers are not really serious about LPG as an alternative fuel source.
I recently purchased a 2007 VE Commodore Lumina which was advertised with LPG as a factory option. However, when I went to the Holden dealer and tried to order an LPG fitted Lumina, I was told that Holden had discontinued the LPG option (only a month into their Lumina promotion), because there wasn’t enough customer interest. So, here was I, an interested customer, who could not get a new car with LPG fitted because it wasn’t cost effective for the manufacturer to do it, even though they still advertised the LPG option for a further month after I was told they weren’t doing it! To make matters worse, I was then told that no self-respecting after-market LPG conversion centre would touch Holden’s new Alloytech engine in the VE because quote, ‘it wouldn’t last 100,000km’ before the engine would be likely to fail.
Now that petrol prices look like passing $1.50 a litre, LPG would be a very welcome cost saver, however, thanks to Holden’s Alloytech there’s no way I’ll be able to get the conversion done!
The inference I draw from this; Holden is not really interested in LPG as an alternative fuel source, otherwise they wouldn’t have made it so difficult for customers to convert one of their biggest selling models. Thanks for nothing Holden!
December 5th, 2007 at 8:15 pm
Australia is a vast and disparately settled country.
Most of us have a useful life. We must travel long distances, mostly by
road.
The appalling Australian Federal Government tax on our second most important Constitutional right of transportation remains a blot on our
culture, on Canberra and the pretentious Federal Department of Transport’s Bureau of Transport Economics. But this is not a surprise. Transport has been as badly handled by Canberra as our primary Constitutional plank of Communication. And Canberra’s treatment of the motor car driver and owner has been a smear on the local autombile manufacturing industry consciences of most Aussie governments since John Curtin was martyred to the cause and Chif was sold a pup by the giant American General.
But how effective is the NRMA since the costly blight of privatisation?
On ABC Radio National today, December 6, the AAA was firm and decisive
in speaking out to support the European diesel car as a useful alternative
but had faint praise for the scant couple of trendy Californian inspired petrol-electric hybrids currently marketed, aimed at the swirling fog of
congestion bound city motorists who would be better served with decent
public transport.
The AAA confirmed views expressed in these columns thaat although expensive and ‘politically correct’ cars like the Prius were more a waste
of R&D resources while the greater need for proper energy alternatives
was not being served.
It’s a valid comment here that LPG container exports out of West Australia
land the fuel at a fraction of the price imposed on Australians.
Again, no matter what the guilt of collusion and conspiracy by the obese and now completely overseas owned oil companies, there is a genuine need for an honest Federal Government to do a serious sight more than merely “examine” the bowser price of petrol here in Oz.
Now, with a push perhaps to recapture Telstra, to buy it back from Rupert Murdoch, is there a snowball’s chance we might hope to buy back AMPOL and WAPET ?
With local industry and dinkum Federal Government response we might at
least bring our bowser costs back to a closer measure with parity.
And if the Chinese and the Koreans really need our LPG to make inferior
motor vehicles, cameras, TV sets and imitation Bonds athletics, then they
surely have sufficient people there to consume it all while we get on with
re-establishing manufacture, some sort of automobile industry, and most of all deferring rightly a reasonable portion of what we own and produce for our own motorists, small businesses, transport.
Perhaps then LPG would, through independent servos, garages, be
bowser priced with decent profit margins still at 20 to 30 cpl, and thereby
be efficiently piped and carted into the dinkum bush areas for regional and rural consumers.
But this would mean an end to the Federal tax bonanza on petrol and diesel as well, bringing the cost of petrol and diesel fuel here back to a much more honest 70 or so cents a litre.
On the other hand, would Canberra dare upset George Bush’s family Texas oil company and the Dutch oil interests in Australia by getting a
fairer deal for the Aussie motorist on our own fossil fuel reserves?
- TDB
February 1st, 2008 at 12:02 am
Contact, harangue and harrass both your local and federal MP’s. LPG is a great, cheaper all round winner for the conumer,environment and the community.
But just watch those greedy politicans getting their claws in and dragging up the LPG excises to make it in the end non worthwhile to convert.
I feel good refuelling on LPG. It helps me do my little bit for the environment with little effort and at a cost saving to me and my family.
Tom C.
February 5th, 2008 at 3:38 pm
Does anyone know where I can buy 10 percent ethanol petrol in North Sydney? Thanks!
March 13th, 2008 at 11:26 am
I applaud the NRMA for it’s fight to keep petrol prices at a reasonable level. However that’s only part of the problem. Why is diesel more expensive than petrol and why has LPG shot up so much.
Australia has vast supplies of gas which we ship off to China for a pittance while we must pay 70 cents per litre.
Of all the alternate fuels available, gas represents the single most immediate, available and environmentally friendly. The new Federal Government has no environmental credentials at all if it doesn’t do something to promote the increased use of this fuel sourse.
Any vehicle that runs on petrol can run on gas. It should be the norm for vehicles to run on gas not the exception.
March 21st, 2008 at 10:14 pm
Does anyone have a Toyota RAV 4 (4 cylinder cruiser model) which is running on LPG? Am currently thinking about purchasing a 2007 rav4 and have a conversion quote for $3600. I have heard different stories about whether or not the conversion will cause any engine problems.
My wife and I were thinking about the Subaru Outback but according to Subaru their vehicles are not suitable for LPG conversion.
According to the company that has quoted $3600 for LPG conversion their past kits never worked on the Rav 4 (kept blowing the converters) but only now have they developed a kit that has been “approved” for use.
I am sceptical about this “new” kit.
March 24th, 2008 at 8:37 pm
So the environment is another winner??? Only 1.5 kg CO2 per litre vs 2.3 kg from petrol, and what greater authority is there than the Australian Government Department of Climate Change.
But hang on. What were the figures for fuel consumption for a Commodore?
10.9 litres of petrol @ 2.3 kg/litre = 25.07 kg CO2 per 100 km
16 litres of LPG @ 1.5 kg/litre = 24 kg CO2 per 100 km
4% saving but reduced vehicle performance. Perhaps just back off in the petrol commodore for the same environmental effect. Disgraceful that green Government offices are populated by non scientists blind to either mathematics or the truth.
No arguments about the economy of LPG in a distorted market where world parity economic arguments only apply to petrol and even the capital cost of the LPG alternative is subsidised.
April 27th, 2008 at 9:36 pm
I have a 2001 Pajero recently converted to LPG with vapour injection system. It uses about 15% more LPG then petrol, has no power drop and by my calculations produces 25% less CO2. Enviroment wise LPG is better then petrol and probable equal to deisel. Cost wise with the $2000 grant there is no comparison.
April 30th, 2008 at 10:44 pm
Re. Garry White
“Disgraceful that green Government offices are populated by non scientists blind to either mathematics or the truth.”
The math that you displayed in your post indicates that LPG has an average saving of 1kg/100km of CO2. I don’t understand how this could not be a benefit.
That could potentially lead to an average saving of 70 000kg/100km for the 70 000 conversions performed when the government offered the LPG conversion rebate.
May 8th, 2008 at 11:17 pm
Gary White: ‘4% saving but reduced vehicle performance. Perhaps just back off in the petrol commodore for the same environmental effect. ”
Or get LPG and an back off on it for double the effect.
A saving isn’t a non-saving just because you can get it another way. A 4% saving in CO2 isn’t nothing.
Regarding the rest of the conversation, I wouldn’t go back to petrol with the amount i save on LPG. The one major annoyance for me is that I cannot insure my car for it’s true market value. Even though LPG can add $800-1000 to the value on the market (from my experience in searching for a replacement second car), insurers will count it as a non-standard extra and refuse to insure it’s value.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:02 pm
Hi guys,
I just bought a 1990 V6 3.8L VN Holden Commodore, read through whats been said on here but just want to get some straight answers, stats if possible and a few questions answered.
1) Does LPG cause any problems to the engine if i still use Petrol from time to time with it like switching here and there?
2) What type of injection system would my car require if i add LPG to the engine system? Just the usual one on any other car?
3) During a car crash does the LPG tank pose a serious problem? Like Everyone has petrol, but is there a bigger hazard wid LPG?
Reason for wanting to convert.
63L Petrol Tank - 590km worth @ $91.35 ($1.45/L) - 15.4cents/km
63L LPG Tank - 390km worth @ $40.95 (65c/L) - 9.5cents/km
thanks to anyone who replies helpin me. =)
May 13th, 2008 at 11:57 pm
I recently had a VT commodore 5 speed converted to duel fuel and find it runs better on gas than petrol especially while the engine is cold. After the rebate it cost me $400. Performance on petrol seems slightly down on before but on gas is about the same as before conversion. Weekly cost for fuel is half of previous and better than a friends Astra 1.8. As you can see there is no disadvantage in the driving. Haven’t been on a trip yet but taxi owner next door says economy is much better on a trip and not far behind petrol.
May 29th, 2008 at 9:17 pm
You say “expect a 20-30 per cent increase in gas consumption over petrol per kilometre” and then quote a 47% increase for a Commodore. What’s an example of a car which is in the 20-30% range?
June 8th, 2008 at 12:52 am
in 1995 i drove from brisbane to melbourne and return in a 5lt v8 panelvan on gas . my inlaws did the same in a gemini 1.6 lt. after we added all our receipts my total fuel bill was 1dollar more than a 4cylnder.
lpg was almost a third the price of petrol now its well over half the price .
oil companies are cashing in because they can . because you let them
i no longer support big brand servos . i allways use the united servo , its 10km out of my way but i save upto 10 cents a litre .
boycot the big names when ever you can and when your driving past 6 servos to get to a cheaper one say “take that you bastards” as you drive past
June 16th, 2008 at 1:18 pm
Earlier this year I had a 2004 3.8L V6 VY Commodore converted to LPG (dual fuel). Best decision ever. No noticeable loss of power (let’s face it, it’s not exactly short of kw to play with) and it prefers the LPG to petrol now - runs smooth as. Uses 12L/100 on petrol, about 16/L100 on LPG around town - much better on long trips. Current prices in Canberra $1.599 ULP, $0.569 LPG. Cost of conversion was $3200 - $2000 = $1200. It’s a no-brainer. Conversion cost almost paid off already. Duty doesn’t start until 2011 (2.5c/L) and then will reach a max of 12.5c/L by 2015. Compare this to duty on ULP of 38c/L. What do you reckon the price of ULP will be in 2015…..?
June 18th, 2008 at 11:32 am
How can you find out if your car is suitable for conversion? We’ve got a 2000 manual holden vectra? My first enquiry was and answered with ‘no, we don’t do those, too many problems’ with no reason for the problems (it was the receptionist calling me back so she couldn’t help).
So how do you find out if you can/can’t get it done?
July 4th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
[...] 100 km = 11 liters petrol 100 km = 16 liters LPG [...]
July 8th, 2008 at 10:00 pm
Anthea, go http://www.lpgautogas.com.au and you’ll find help there!
July 8th, 2008 at 10:03 pm
And 11l/100km on petrol ($18.15 @ $1.65/litre) is still more than 16L/100km on LPG ($11.04 @ $0.69/litre).
July 10th, 2008 at 7:49 am
I understand that the Federal Government is selling our LPG for 5 cents / litre, the federal politician that sold our gas for this price should be held for treason, I wonder if he has been paid off some how,
Questions: When does this contract end
What would be the price the federal goverment will be selling the LPG to China after the contract will expire, Can noirmal people power stop the sale is it possible
Can the Federal Governement sell the LPG at the Aussie pump price.to overseas then the Chinese would be paying what the supply is actual worth and hopefully save our aliening economy as this will put the prices worldwide up, for goods we all use - but hey, it may just start kicking off manufacturing in Australia again.
please enlightnen me
July 12th, 2008 at 6:51 pm
Who do you think owns the gas companys? They don’t have the same op names but there all owned by the same **** companies as the oil ****. The only way to break away from these leachers is to go to another energy. & thats battry elect.
Loby your reps {local,stat,federal.} We all must go to power.
I’m sure they don’t own ower power stations.{yet}
Cheers
S M C
July 29th, 2008 at 11:34 am
I had my 1986 Toyota HiAce van converted to LPG at the end of last April. I retained the ability to use petrol yet fit the LPG tank under the cargo floor by having the petrol tank cut in half. The spare tyre is now carried in the cargo area. The van had 250,000km on it when converted.
This HiAce being an older vehicle with a carburettor and breaker point ignition, a gas converter/venturi plate LPG system was used. This is not the most efficient LPG induction system but without an engine control computer, it was not possible to install one of the new liquid-phase LPG injection systems. Liquid injection systems do much better both on power and efficiency compared to petrol and switch seamlessly between fuels.
I now have 4700km logged post-conversion. The van goes 11.5L/100km on petrol and 14L/100km on LPG. The old style venturi LPG system yields a 17.8% increase in km per litre fuel use on LPG, not quite the 20-30% increase noted in the post. However, with non-computerised ignition systems, the engine can be tuned for best performance either on LPG or on petrol but performance will suffer on the disfavoured fuel unless the engine is retuned.
I have tuned my dinosaur’s engine for LPG. I installed one heat-range colder spark plugs, upgraded the plug wires to heavy-duty silicone type and advanced the timing by 5 degrees. The fuel economy and performance on petrol is now not as good as it was before tuning for LPG and the tuning can’t be changed at the flip of a switch like it can with the new LPG injection systems. Consequently, now tuned for LPG, the van runs better on LPG than it does on petrol but can still use petrol just in the rare case I can’t get LPG. Most of my driving is within Sydney so LPG availability is not a problem. Since tuning for LPG, the van has about the same performance on gas as it did when on petrol only.
When converting older vehicles to LPG, it is important to consider what sort of valve seats are installed in the cylinder head. If the vehicle is designed for unleaded petrol and has hardened valve seats (as do most if not all vehicles sold in Aus in 1986 and after), it will run on LPG with no maintenance considerations vs ULP. When running on LPG, the motor oil does not turn black with abrasive carbon particulates as it did from poorly combusted petrol. However, LPG combustion has some acidic byproducts which can get into motor oil. LPG specific motor oils, particularly synthetics, combat this problem. It is still a much cleaner burning fuel than petrol, especially important in old vehicles like this HiAce which may be able to run on ULP but which don’t have a catalytic converter.
At the end of the day, I now spend 55% less on fuel per km. It’s about 17.1c/km on petrol and around 8c/km on LPG. In 4700km over two-and-a-bit months, I have saved more than $500 as opposed to petrol. The installation cost $3000 and I got back $2000 on the LPG subsidy scheme, so I was $1000 out of pocket. The installation cost has now been 50% repaid in savings, in a rather brief period. Wish I’d done it years ago.
August 4th, 2008 at 8:48 pm
Petrol is imported.
Oil Peak has been reached, so petrol is only going to get more expensive.
LPG is better for the environment
We have an abundant supply just off Bass Straight
If oil producing countries are able to sell petrol to its nationals cheaper, why can’t we?
I understand it’s sold to China for 2c per litre.
Why are we being slugged more, with ongoing raising of excise?
Wouldn’t it be a viable option short term? 20-40 years until a true alternative is found.
August 21st, 2008 at 2:51 am
Any one can tell me if 2005 Holden VZ Commodore Executive is suitable for LPG.
and what is the installation cost?
sos~~~~~ sos
August 29th, 2008 at 8:40 am
My 2006 XT pulls a van , all up about 1500kg & on gas it’s a GAS! The only way to keep on travellin’…going up long inclines we switch to petrol; but otherwise it’s theonly way to enjoy a long, cheap holiday with a caravan.
September 1st, 2008 at 12:48 pm
Isnt it time this foolish $2000 rebate for lpg was abolished. It was only introduced by the Howard government to be seen to be doing something about petrol prices.
Environmentally its a disaster. Paying the capital costs for people to convert to a much cheaper fuel? We all know the effect of making fuel cheaper: people will continue to drive larger vehicles and/or drive the same and/or larger distances. One thing for sure it is not going to encourage anyone to drive less. As has been mentioned previously in the thread, the small reduction in CO2 emissions per km travelled will be meaningless if the total amount of fuel burnt increases.
Really, giving people $2K to convert their new territory to make it cheaper to create more emissions, hardly supporting the aussie battler is it.
September 25th, 2008 at 1:14 pm
My car: Mercedes 300d diesel. Noisy, slow, efficient.
After reading this thread and considering the:
-possibility of lower engine reliability/life
-Lower or close to the same engine power
-almost meaningless difference in emmisions (4%)
-no guarentee of future prices past 2015
-extra veichle weight
-enough said?
We already have electric cars and hybrids and they are better short and long term solutions for road transportaion.
Plus, why arnt you driving a diesel? Your car is a 4cyl/v6/v8 petrol/gas? Can you afford the luxury? So what your car is faster?
The diesels were popular in the last oil crisis, and their still here now as an answer to emissions, range, fuel consumption & now power.
Until electrics, go to diesel.
October 9th, 2008 at 7:44 am
It’s great that David bought up diesel. Particulates from diesel are known to cause cancer as well as lots of smog. Newer vehicles have particulate filter, which addresses this issue, but they only represent a small number vehicles on the road at this stage. On top of that, the Government tax on diesel is ridiculous. The original concept for the diesel was the ‘peoples engine’ which would run on a wide range of basic fuels; unfortunately the new ‘efficient’ diesel engines are very fussy with their fuel
If you want to talk about emission and LPG, why not look at the full story. Yes, LPG emits less CO2 compared to an equivalent ULP vehicle, and 4% is significant. All the press and industry talk about is CO2, however if take the time to look deeper there are other significant benefits.
LPG produces 80% less (yes that’s 1/5) toxic emissions compares to a ULP vehicle. It also produces way less particulate (yes ULP produces particulate - look at the black on the inside of your exhaust pipe! I would argue that toxic and particulate emissions are also a significant part of the equation.
I just bought a new car, and favoured a diesel until I looked into it in detail - ended up buying LPG!
October 27th, 2008 at 10:13 pm
Quoting:
“# commsir Says:
September 1st, 2008 at 12:48 pm
Isnt it time this foolish $2000 rebate for lpg was abolished. It was only introduced by the Howard government to be seen to be doing something about petrol prices.
Environmentally its a disaster. Paying the capital costs for people to convert to a much cheaper fuel? We all know the effect of making fuel cheaper: people will continue to drive larger vehicles and/or drive the same and/or larger distances. One thing for sure it is not going to encourage anyone to drive less. As has been mentioned previously in the thread, the small reduction in CO2 emissions per km travelled will be meaningless if the total amount of fuel burnt increases.
Really, giving people $2K to convert their new territory to make it cheaper to create more emissions, hardly supporting the aussie battler is it.”
Regarding the above mentioned comment;
Remember, people come first. What makes Australia such a great country to live in as opposed to Europe for example, is that the average person here can afford a car and enjoy the associated freedoms that goes with it.
If LPG is there to help preserve that freedom then it is a worty cause.
November 4th, 2008 at 3:13 pm
If you have a Nissan Pathfinder (2005) or later, don’t convert to LPG!!!! We went to a reputable LPG converter and as a consequence, our 3 year old car is deceased (with only 80,000 kms). The engine has been destroyed as a result of the conversion.
I first complained that it never felt right the day after I collected it but everyone said that was normal. I took my car back several times to be checked but no problems were detected. The catalytic converter had to replaced 2 weeks ago. But that didn’t fix the problems. 2 days later, I noticed smoke from my exhaust. I hauled it back to the mechanic and as a consequence, was told that my engine was dead. He is now claiming that Nissan Pathfinders are not particularly good for converting to gas, given the location of the catalytic converters. It’s a pity he didn’t think of that before he did the $4,500 conversion. My husband and I are furious with the mechanic and are hopeful of resolving the matter - given that he destroyed our engine with the conversion.
So for anyone thinking of converting to LPG - think again!!!! Buy something economical instead - I know I will when this mess is sorted out.
November 11th, 2008 at 4:32 pm
My first LPG car was purchased in 1988, a 2nd hand XC Falcon ($4000) that took our family of six (I had a seat for one of the kids fitted between the two front seats) to holidays in SA, VIC and QLD until I got a company car in 1993. I next had an LPG Nissan Patrol in 2000 and last year traded it on a new Toyota Hi-Ace with LPG. I’m just about to get a second car (Toyota Tarago) on LPG. The only downside in using LPG for the last 20years has been the slow rollout of LPG service stations in NSW. Unlike the unfortunate person in the previous blog, I haven’t had any mechanical issues with my vehicles and I predict that I have done over 500,000kms using LPG. FYI, when I first started using LPG in ‘88 it was 30c. per litre in Sydney and 22c. per litre in Melbourne! Victoria was way ahead of NSW in LPG usage in the eighties. Modern LPG systems use gas injection similar to fuel injection and the Hi-Ace and Tarago start on ULP and automatically change over when the engine has run for approximately 2 minutes. They tell me that this helps the engine to start and run smoothly.