Comments on: The use of ‘Bus’ and ‘Bus only’ lanes http://www.mynrmacommunity.com/motoring/2008/09/08/the-use-of-bus-and-bus-only-lanes/ Blog about Motoring, Travel and Member Issues in NSW, Australia - by NRMA Motoring and Services Tue, 06 Jan 2009 01:48:07 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.5 By: Jimmy http://www.mynrmacommunity.com/motoring/2008/09/08/the-use-of-bus-and-bus-only-lanes/#comment-1664 Jimmy Wed, 03 Dec 2008 11:09:53 +0000 http://www.mynrmacommunity.com/motoring/?p=38#comment-1664 Roger please refer to the Journey to work statistics and the household travel survey compiled by the transport data centre. I must say that your explaination can't be found in either of these two reports. In peak times 75% of commutes to the CBD are by public transport which includes buses trains and ferries. If there is major use of public transport in peak times only this suggests that bus lanes should be time specific as opposed to 24 hours. This also suggests that out of peak times bus lanes and buses are under utilised and therefore bus lanes are not a good use of society's scarce resources. Which was exactly my point. At the moment policy is skewed towards public transport and cycling at the cost of all other modes. Wouldn't a more sensible approach be to address the revealed preferences of the majority. That is people's preference towards private travel by motor vehicles over the inefficient public transport system of Sydney's buses, trains and ferries. There are two ways to do this is: 1. invest in a world class public transport system; 2. introduce system-wide congestion pricing and do away with fuel excise. Roger please refer to the Journey to work statistics and the household travel survey compiled by the transport data centre. I must say that your explaination can’t be found in either of these two reports. In peak times 75% of commutes to the CBD are by public transport which includes buses trains and ferries.

If there is major use of public transport in peak times only this suggests that bus lanes should be time specific as opposed to 24 hours. This also suggests that out of peak times bus lanes and buses are under utilised and therefore bus lanes are not a good use of society’s scarce resources. Which was exactly my point.

At the moment policy is skewed towards public transport and cycling at the cost of all other modes. Wouldn’t a more sensible approach be to address the revealed preferences of the majority. That is people’s preference towards private travel by motor vehicles over the inefficient public transport system of Sydney’s buses, trains and ferries. There are two ways to do this is:
1. invest in a world class public transport system;
2. introduce system-wide congestion pricing and do away with fuel excise.

]]> By: Roger http://www.mynrmacommunity.com/motoring/2008/09/08/the-use-of-bus-and-bus-only-lanes/#comment-1661 Roger Tue, 02 Dec 2008 00:58:44 +0000 http://www.mynrmacommunity.com/motoring/?p=38#comment-1661 Your statistics have been manipulated to serve your cause here Jimmy. Just because the -overall- bus trip utilization rate is 5.2%, doesn't mean that it's that low on the Harbour bridge corridor. As many trips are CBD-bound it's likely to be much higher than that (up to 90% of trips to the CBD are by public transport - the reverse is the case for cross-town journeys). Thus, applying the 5.2% rate here is useless and misleading. Cars being used "71.4% of the time" is often because people are forced into car dependency through lack of PT options - it's not always a choice or that they're inherently superior. They have their uses, but I'd rather see people on PT, freeing road space for commercial traffic, tradies etc. Your statistics have been manipulated to serve your cause here Jimmy. Just because the -overall- bus trip utilization rate is 5.2%, doesn’t mean that it’s that low on the Harbour bridge corridor. As many trips are CBD-bound it’s likely to be much higher than that (up to 90% of trips to the CBD are by public transport - the reverse is the case for cross-town journeys).
Thus, applying the 5.2% rate here is useless and misleading.

Cars being used “71.4% of the time” is often because people are forced into car dependency through lack of PT options - it’s not always a choice or that they’re inherently superior. They have their uses, but I’d rather see people on PT, freeing road space for commercial traffic, tradies etc.

]]> By: Jimmy http://www.mynrmacommunity.com/motoring/2008/09/08/the-use-of-bus-and-bus-only-lanes/#comment-1656 Jimmy Fri, 28 Nov 2008 06:20:15 +0000 http://www.mynrmacommunity.com/motoring/?p=38#comment-1656 Adam.... if you are going to quote figures get it right. The link says that during the AM peak carries 30% more people than the other traffic lanes. This is great... but there are two problems. The AM peak only runs from 7am to 9am. What happens for the rest of the time? Also consider the overall statistics, in Sydney Newcastle and the Illawarra. 71.4% of all trips people are either a driver or a passenger in a car. Buses are used for only 5.2% of all trips. So assuming that only bases and cars use in the road, in the case of the Harbour Bridge we are taking 12.5% of the road space to serve 6.7% of the deamand. And whats more that 6.7% of the demand are not contributing go the costs of maintaining the infrastructure to meet the Demand. Second, the Harbour Bridge has been and is paid for by tolls on motorists not by general taxes. So we have a bridge that was paid for by motorists and now the Government is saying that after paying for it they are not allowed to use 12.5% of it. To put this into perspective. This is like the government saying that after you pay off your house you are not allowed to use one of the bedrooms because they are going to allow someone else to live there instead. Would you be happy such an outcome?... (I guess you would if you were the freerider living in the free room). If Sydney's bus lanes and bus services are so good why are they being utilised only 5.2% of the time. If Cars are so bad why are they being used 71.4% of the time. Could the statistics be telling us something here? Adam…. if you are going to quote figures get it right. The link says that during the AM peak carries 30% more people than the other traffic lanes.

This is great… but there are two problems. The AM peak only runs from 7am to 9am. What happens for the rest of the time? Also consider the overall statistics, in Sydney Newcastle and the Illawarra. 71.4% of all trips people are either a driver or a passenger in a car. Buses are used for only 5.2% of all trips. So assuming that only bases and cars use in the road, in the case of the Harbour Bridge we are taking 12.5% of the road space to serve 6.7% of the deamand. And whats more that 6.7% of the demand are not contributing go the costs of maintaining the infrastructure to meet the Demand.

Second, the Harbour Bridge has been and is paid for by tolls on motorists not by general taxes. So we have a bridge that was paid for by motorists and now the Government is saying that after paying for it they are not allowed to use 12.5% of it.

To put this into perspective. This is like the government saying that after you pay off your house you are not allowed to use one of the bedrooms because they are going to allow someone else to live there instead. Would you be happy such an outcome?… (I guess you would if you were the freerider living in the free room).

If Sydney’s bus lanes and bus services are so good why are they being utilised only 5.2% of the time. If Cars are so bad why are they being used 71.4% of the time. Could the statistics be telling us something here?

]]> By: Roger http://www.mynrmacommunity.com/motoring/2008/09/08/the-use-of-bus-and-bus-only-lanes/#comment-1655 Roger Wed, 26 Nov 2008 01:20:57 +0000 http://www.mynrmacommunity.com/motoring/?p=38#comment-1655 The bus lane on the Harbour bridge carries *30% more people* (not cars, people - which is what we're mainly trying to move from one place to another) than *all the other 7 lanes combined* as of 2005; by now it's surely an even higher figure. (source: http://www.bridgeclimb.com/theBridge/traffic.htm). Bus lanes are a great idea provided they're used effectively (ie frequent bus services, so people use them and not cars). Bus lanes that are simply painted/signed with irregular or useless (ie circuitous) bus routes that no-one is going to use detract from the perceived utility of those that are effective and serve no useful purpose. The bus lane on the Harbour bridge carries *30% more people* (not cars, people - which is what we’re mainly trying to move from one place to another) than *all the other 7 lanes combined* as of 2005; by now it’s surely an even higher figure. (source: http://www.bridgeclimb.com/theBridge/traffic.htm).

Bus lanes are a great idea provided they’re used effectively (ie frequent bus services, so people use them and not cars). Bus lanes that are simply painted/signed with irregular or useless (ie circuitous) bus routes that no-one is going to use detract from the perceived utility of those that are effective and serve no useful purpose.

]]> By: Adam http://www.mynrmacommunity.com/motoring/2008/09/08/the-use-of-bus-and-bus-only-lanes/#comment-1654 Adam Tue, 25 Nov 2008 05:11:07 +0000 http://www.mynrmacommunity.com/motoring/?p=38#comment-1654 A quick note on Gavin Orr and Big Al's posts above. Bus lanes actually reduce congestion rather than cause congestion. They carry more passengers than cars and thereby actually free up road space for motorists. For example, the bus lane on the Sydney Harbour bridge carries 30% more traffic than all the other lanes on the bridge combined. So if you took away the bus lane you would need more lanes on the bridge to move the same amount of people. Where buses use the same lanes as other cars, they have to travel more slowly, meaning that they can't move as any people/hour, resulting in more congestion. So while it might be frustrating to have to sit in traffic and see buses moving along faster than you, just be thankful that the 60 people sitting on that bus aren't sitting in 60 cars in front of you, contributing to even more congestion. A quick note on Gavin Orr and Big Al’s posts above. Bus lanes actually reduce congestion rather than cause congestion. They carry more passengers than cars and thereby actually free up road space for motorists. For example, the bus lane on the Sydney Harbour bridge carries 30% more traffic than all the other lanes on the bridge combined. So if you took away the bus lane you would need more lanes on the bridge to move the same amount of people. Where buses use the same lanes as other cars, they have to travel more slowly, meaning that they can’t move as any people/hour, resulting in more congestion. So while it might be frustrating to have to sit in traffic and see buses moving along faster than you, just be thankful that the 60 people sitting on that bus aren’t sitting in 60 cars in front of you, contributing to even more congestion.

]]> By: Ricardo http://www.mynrmacommunity.com/motoring/2008/09/08/the-use-of-bus-and-bus-only-lanes/#comment-1595 Ricardo Tue, 30 Sep 2008 07:43:48 +0000 http://www.mynrmacommunity.com/motoring/?p=38#comment-1595 I was fine because on 2/Aug/08 I took the T-way lane at North West transitway at Blacktown, B/W Turner St & Vardys Rd. I just want to around to the next block, I couldn't see any signs at all, eather my wife, I never been in that part of Blacktown before, when suddenly I was inside the T way lane, is like I was trapped, I couldn't go back would be dangerus, I have to drive one block on the T-way lane, It was Saturday should be allowed to use this lane, They fine me with $243.00 and they took 3 points of my licence, I called them to appeal telling them that I did not put any one in danger, but they said you have to pay. With everything so expensive this days our goberment should be more helpfull rather than greedy. I was fine because on 2/Aug/08 I took the T-way lane at North West transitway at Blacktown, B/W Turner St & Vardys Rd.
I just want to around to the next block, I couldn’t see any signs at all, eather my wife, I never been in that part of Blacktown before, when suddenly I was inside the T way lane, is like I was trapped, I couldn’t go back would be dangerus, I have to drive one block on the T-way lane,
It was Saturday should be allowed to use this lane, They fine me with $243.00 and they took 3 points of my licence, I called them to appeal telling them that I did not put any one in danger, but they said you have to pay.
With everything so expensive this days our goberment should be more helpfull rather than greedy.

]]> By: Big Al http://www.mynrmacommunity.com/motoring/2008/09/08/the-use-of-bus-and-bus-only-lanes/#comment-1589 Big Al Wed, 24 Sep 2008 07:15:24 +0000 http://www.mynrmacommunity.com/motoring/?p=38#comment-1589 As usual the boffins in the RTA have no clue what-so-ever about how to effectively manage our roads. Bus Lanes are another perfect example of how they think (or don't think is more the case) that a complex problem can be solved simply by applying a simple punitive measure to it. Wrong!. What they need to do is work on ways to improve the traffic flow for all the vehicles on the road, not simply slowing down one or more lanes to a crawl in order to give the appearance that the buses are travelling faster. The real purpose of a Bus Lane should be to provide a dedicated area for loading & unloading of passengers in safety WITHOUT causing disruption to the flow of traffic. If buses do not need to stop to pick up or set down passengers then they should travel in the same lane as everyone else. As usual the boffins in the RTA have no clue what-so-ever about how to effectively manage our roads. Bus Lanes are another perfect example of how they think (or don’t think is more the case) that a complex problem can be solved simply by applying a simple punitive measure to it. Wrong!. What they need to do is work on ways to improve the traffic flow for all the vehicles on the road, not simply slowing down one or more lanes to a crawl in order to give the appearance that the buses are travelling faster. The real purpose of a Bus Lane should be to provide a dedicated area for loading & unloading of passengers in safety WITHOUT causing disruption to the flow of traffic. If buses do not need to stop to pick up or set down passengers then they should travel in the same lane as everyone else.

]]> By: Gavin Orr http://www.mynrmacommunity.com/motoring/2008/09/08/the-use-of-bus-and-bus-only-lanes/#comment-1584 Gavin Orr Mon, 22 Sep 2008 12:16:25 +0000 http://www.mynrmacommunity.com/motoring/?p=38#comment-1584 While the idea of bus lanes seems worthwhile, they appear to generate excessive congestion for non-buses, while doing little to speed up the buses. The reduction of Epping road to one lane plus a bus lane seems to me to be an attempt to make the "non-tollway" as congested as possible, in an effort to have more people to use the Lane Cove Tunnel. Bus lanes during peak hour might encourage car drivers to take the bus, and so result in less car traffic, but I think only free and plentiful public tranport within a wide raduis of the CBD, combined with a total car ban, would reduce congestion, but this is unlikely to happen (and almost certainly impractical anyway). While the idea of bus lanes seems worthwhile, they appear to generate excessive congestion for non-buses, while doing little to speed up the buses. The reduction of Epping road to one lane plus a bus lane seems to me to be an attempt to make the “non-tollway” as congested as possible, in an effort to have more people to use the Lane Cove Tunnel.

Bus lanes during peak hour might encourage car drivers to take the bus, and so result in less car traffic, but I think only free and plentiful public tranport within a wide raduis of the CBD, combined with a total car ban, would reduce congestion, but this is unlikely to happen (and almost certainly impractical anyway).

]]> By: Kevin http://www.mynrmacommunity.com/motoring/2008/09/08/the-use-of-bus-and-bus-only-lanes/#comment-1580 Kevin Sun, 21 Sep 2008 07:18:33 +0000 http://www.mynrmacommunity.com/motoring/?p=38#comment-1580 Bus lanes are fine (generally) if used as such but when buses avoid them in peak hour (Elizabeth Street as mentioned above is a prime example) due to cars turning left, taxis stopping frequently, service vehicles stopping illegally, cyclists, etc, they still clog up the remaining two lanes so that traffic moves even more slowly. Buses should also have fines if straying from their exclusive lanes, except to move out to pass a turning car etc, but there is no excuse for them filling the third lane in order to race the other buses. Bus rage often ensues. Don't get me wrong - I ride the buses to work and don't drive but am also a driver and feel that rules are fine if evenly applied. Some policing of the "don't queue across intersections" rule at peak times in the city might also help - buses and other vehicles all seem to feel that they deserve to flout that one and if no-one enforces the rules, who can blame them? Bus lanes are fine (generally) if used as such but when buses avoid them in peak hour (Elizabeth Street as mentioned above is a prime example) due to cars turning left, taxis stopping frequently, service vehicles stopping illegally, cyclists, etc, they still clog up the remaining two lanes so that traffic moves even more slowly.

Buses should also have fines if straying from their exclusive lanes, except to move out to pass a turning car etc, but there is no excuse for them filling the third lane in order to race the other buses. Bus rage often ensues.

Don’t get me wrong - I ride the buses to work and don’t drive but am also a driver and feel that rules are fine if evenly applied. Some policing of the “don’t queue across intersections” rule at peak times in the city might also help - buses and other vehicles all seem to feel that they deserve to flout that one and if no-one enforces the rules, who can blame them?

]]> By: Bob Rona http://www.mynrmacommunity.com/motoring/2008/09/08/the-use-of-bus-and-bus-only-lanes/#comment-1575 Bob Rona Fri, 19 Sep 2008 21:16:48 +0000 http://www.mynrmacommunity.com/motoring/?p=38#comment-1575 Its simple.. Busses are a {peak time transporter and opnly need extra help to het through the traffic in Peak hour times.. SO.... Bus lanes should be active from 6 am through to 9 am then the lanes should be open to all traffic from 9 am till 4 pm Then back to Bus lanes from 4 pm till 7 pm.. Then open to all traffic till the morning again... It Aint That Hard!!!!! Bob Rona Its simple..
Busses are a {peak time transporter and opnly need extra help to het through the traffic in Peak hour times..
SO….
Bus lanes should be active from 6 am through to 9 am
then the lanes should be open to all traffic from 9 am till 4 pm
Then back to Bus lanes from 4 pm till 7 pm..

Then open to all traffic till the morning again…

It Aint That Hard!!!!!

Bob Rona

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